Darwinia Network
Listing Ring,Kton,Crab,Ckton on DEX #1377
Replies: 9 comments 19 replies
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I think we need to first clarify and understand the question, especially if there are some conceptual confusions. Darwinia, in itself, should refer only to this network or community, which involves many entities or community members, such as Darwinia Treasury, Itering, DCDAO, Crab DAO, HelixDAO, SubAPI DAO, Councils, ambassadors, independent developers, app developers, token holders, and so on. Therefore, asking 'Does Darwinia have any thoughts?' sounds a bit strange and hard to answer because “There might be many thoughts in the Darwinia Community from different people and entities.” Asking specific organizations or individuals would make it easier to answer. For DEX listings, in my opinion, most of them are permissionless, which is also the spirit and characteristic of Web3. If someone wants to list, they can go directly and add liquidity." If you have already created a trading pair on a DEX, please share the addresses for trading and adding liquidity pools (LP). This allows other members of the community to contribute to the liquidity as well. If you think confirming more documents and community resources is necessary to help beginners learn how to use DEX and get ring, please seek assistance from support and education personnel within the community. If you are unsure about how to create a DEX and need technical help, please provide more detailed descriptions with additional details. Thank you. |
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For HydraDX Omnipool, that's a good initiative, @AurevoirXavier would you please take a look at this and provide necessary technical support as this is a proposal in Polkadot ecosystem? |
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Okay, I've added it to my list. |
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It is my first time hearing for Degate. Who is providing liquidity there and how come Ring is traded with USDC? Is that on Ethereum network, I can not check as not at home. I still think adding liquidity in Snowswap is too hard for community members alone. Many fear that Impermenent loss will eat most of their profits and keep to staking(they are right too) as pool is usually not deep enough. If it wasn't for Dustin who knows how to provide liquidity and how/when to exit from LP most probably none would dare to provide and risk their tokens. He since removed liquidity due to reasons he named (sorry I forgot)and he shared all of this with community when he did which is highly appreciated and transparent. Many community members did try to provide liquidity too but with small amounts that really doesn't help the pool as swapping only a few tokens already made a huge price impact. I think it is left up to a project to first put some ammount for initial or permanent liquidity on DEX as this puts more trust for community to join. Maybe some incentives for providing liquidity could also be another option to cover some of the IL community members take on(sometimes DEXes also offer some of their tokens if they have them as well for couple of months) I have seen this being the case with projects similar to ours. What do you think? Is Darwinia governance ready for proposal to provide some initial liquidity in DEX or incentivise people to do so? I would join if I had more free time and knowledge. I lack in both departments;-) |
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The problem with the lack of liquidity on Snowswap (or any Polkadot ecosystem DEX, etc.,) is not due to lack of education, support or similar, it has been written many times, but it is worth repeating if it helps to overcome the problem, the lack of liquidity for native Kton and Ring trading. Community members don't put Kton and Ring as liquidity because of staking and not having how to attract and with what to attract to do it and have a bigger benefit than simply staking their Kton and Ring. I see a solution only in the KTON that is in Darwinia Treasury (or whatever that wallet is officially called) and in another, how should I call that wallet, that is not owned by community members, and in which there are also some 300+ KTON, a total of 700 maybe KTON and which would be great liquidity. |
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I found the wallets, |
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DCDAO is recruiting people to do the work. |
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May I know what work? |
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@SasoLithops I mean this discussion |
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Ring and Kton are EVM tokens. It seems like they may be trying to come up
with their own solution from crab and ckton.
…On Wed, Jan 24, 2024, 11:31 AM SasoLithops ***@***.***> wrote:
It is my first time hearing for Degate. Who is providing liquidity there
and how come Ring is traded with USDC? Is that on Ethereum network, I can
not check as not at home.
I still think adding liquidity in Snowswap is too hard for community
members alone. Many fear that Impermenent loss will eat most of their
profits and keep to staking(they are right too) as pool is usually not deep
enough. If it wasn't for Dustin who knows how to provide liquidity and
how/when to exit from LP most probably none would dare to provide and risk
their tokens. He since removed liquidity due to reasons he named (sorry I
forgot)and he shared all of this with community when he did which is highly
appreciated and transparent. Many community members did try to provide
liquidity too but with small amounts that really doesn't help the pool as
swapping only a few tokens already made a huge price impact.
I think it is left up to a project to first put some ammount for initial
or permanent liquidity on DEX as this puts more trust for community to
join. Maybe some incentives for providing liquidity could also be another
option to cover some of the IL community members take on(sometimes DEXes
also offer some of their tokens if they have them as well for couple of
months) I have seen this being the case with projects similar to ours.
What do you think? Is Darwinia governance ready for proposal to provide
some initial liquidity in DEX or incentivise people to do so?
I would join if I had more free time and knowledge. I lack in both
departments;-)
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@SasoLithops So there is currently no liquidity for KTON on Snowswap, nor is there any way to buy or sell Ring. As a result of this and other reasons, Darwinia does not have more than a dozen transfers per day. |
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But Laki remember when we were having staking discussion and many got loud we are not receiving less rewards then we used to. We want high percentage to go to stakers. And not giving higher percentage to treasury. What if we meet in half way. Have a "halving" in staking rewards(so staking is not that atractive, many others have done it) and put the other half in treasury to incentivise liquidity providers and dApps to start building on our chain. Other option is restaking will be sooner or later comming to Polkadot and with our huge staking rewards protocols might start using it. I need to dig deeper to see if that could be profitable for us. |
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I think we have discussed this many times and there is no point in going around in circles, but let's do it for the last time.. do you know another project from the Polkadot ecosystem where 60% of the annual inflation goes to the Treasury, tell me 1 (one) other project ? I think you are not informed, or you are consciously or unconsciously manipulating. I found my calculation from November 27, 2023, according to which with only 14% of the entire Ring being staked, staking rewards are already 12% APR, which means that if there was a 50% staking rate as it is approximately on Polkadot there would be an absurd situation where the APR would be less than the annual inflation. After 2 months from then, the situation can only worsen and for a certain period we will come to a situation where staking rewards are lower than inflation. That's why I don't see your "attractive" staking rewards, lol. What is it about, have you selected a collator of 15M total stake? Well, not everyone can do that, if everyone does that collator will have 800M total stake power. Look for the middle, choose a collator of 40-45M total power stake and see your attractive rewards haha. This is an average, you can also choose someone with 95M total stake, that's the other end of the story.
My suggestion is, these 2 wallets have 779 KTON in total and that is solid liquidity. |
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I will not reply to you on this topic anymore, everyone has the right to their own opinion, and you have the right to your own opinion, have a nice day. And now I'm writing in general, it doesn't apply to you, nor am I looking for your reply or opinion on my proposal, I suggest to someone who has the desire, motivation, persistence and perseverance to push the KTON from the following 2 wallets, to be used for liquidity. Since Darwinia, at least on paper, is decentralized, that KTON belongs to all of us, currently sitting there unused, so let it be used to provide liquidity to Snowswap, or perhaps another DEX, as the community decides. |
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I can't speak for the whole community but imho staking has been really good
to us for almost two years. If the project can be better by reducing the
staking rewards then I have no issue with it.
But to get back to the dex...Personally, I don't want to have to touch eth
if I don't have to because of the stupidly high fees! I'm sure there were
reasons for making ring and kton EVM compatible but I personally wish you
hadn't. I'm certain the entire community would enjoy simpler and less
expensive on and off ramps for their ring and kton though. It also makes it
more inviting for people onboarding for the first time. I'm sure there will
be new folks once the market is a lot more bullish. There also needs to be
a little more communication so people feel like the wheels are spinning.
Try to be more engaged with the community and it will go a long way.
…On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 4:58 PM SasoLithops ***@***.***> wrote:
But Laki remember when we were having staking discussion and many got loud
we are not receiving less rewards then we used to. We want high percentage
to go to stakers. And not giving higher percentage to treasury.
If we sacrificed some of rewards put more percentage to the treasury, gave
some of that percentage of that treasury to liquidity providers as
incentives or simply buy back Kton, we wouldn't have this conversation. We
have too attractive staking rewards. My power dropped 2M+ and I still
receive more then I used to. We only " incentivise" stakers.
What if we meet in half way. Have a "halving" in staking rewards(so
staking is not that atractive, many others have done it) and put the other
half in treasury to incentivise liquidity providers and dApps to start
building on our chain.
Other option is restaking will be sooner or later comming to Polkadot and
with our huge staking rewards protocols might start using it. I need to dig
deeper to see if that could be profitable for us.
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@pdmerritt I absolutely also speak only my opinion. We talk it out and see if it makes sense. I agree we should avoid ETH by any means exactlly because of high fees. |
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After carefully looking at all suggestions, here’s what I think will be best: Mechanism:
Swap Fees:There are 2 directions a swap can occur involving these two pairs:
For the first direction, original swap fee of 0.25% remains the same. 0.25% fee breakdown: 50% fee breakdown(a ratio of the above): Sustainability and Profitability Calculations(Fee Impact on Staking):We’d have to use an estimate of prices and equivalents taken at 9:30 PM UTC, 15th Feb., 2024. As follows: Using the maximum lock period of 36 months,
“Therefore, for every 1 RING locked for 36 months, you receive 0.33 RING equivalent in KTON.”
This KTON equivalent amounts to 53.648 KTON “Therefore, for every 1 RING swapped for KTON on snowswap.xyz, you receive 0.5 RING equivalent in KTON” Hope you’re following! (these parameters above will guide this study) Differential Gains from Darwinia Staking DApp & Snowswap.xyz (when minting KTON)Drawing estimates from above: 100,000 RING locked for 36 months on Darwinia Staking DApp yields 36.464 KTON 100,000 RING swapped for KTON yields 53.648 KTON Differential Gain from Darwinia Staking DApp = 100,000 RING(at the end of the lock period) Is 17.18 KTON equivalent to 100,000 RING? No. 17.18 KTON = 17.18 * 932 RING = 16,011 RING. Differential Power gained if all KTON and RING from both avenues are staked on the Darwinia Staking DApp independently.Standing on the above estimates, Darwinia Staking DApp will yield 100,000 RING(locked for 36 months), 36.464 KTON and 373,215 Power. While; Insights
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David, To start, I appreciate the effort you have put in so far. There are a number of concerns I see in this proposal.
I think from here I would suggest developing a proposal that does the following: Uses the 779 KTON and 726,028 RING (Current prices and will need to be readjusted at the time liquidity is provided) to bolster the KTON swap pool on Snowswap.xyz. Also as part of this proposal or even a separate one a farm be setup that is funded by the treasury that rewards an LP provider equal to what staking rewards are for the KTON/RING provided. If you need some help figure out the staking rewards on a power basis please let me know and I can help you. There need to be a clear economic picture of what providing these farm rewards will cost the treasury. If the economics work out without a large impact to the treasury, the farm could offer rewards higher than staking. We could even add in $PINK to the rewards since the treasury will have some. The period for this farm should start at 6 months with a revaluation and a funding proposal needed after that time frame to keep it going. One thing we all need to keep in mind with these treasury spend proposals is that they need to be robust and accurate with very clear impact and costs. |
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Got the points you stated above. I drafted this off my current understanding, which reflects a lot of learning needs to be done. Will communicate more and build out a better proposal. |
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To add to @PartnershipDude. I was thinking to not change our staking model, we could provide incentives for farming liquidity on DEX. If treasury gave up 5% of its rewards, we would stop worrying all together about having Kton listed somewhere and having it on DEX is imho enough for KTON. Here are calculations behind this decision: 418362 new Ring are minted daily (thanks Laki and Jesse for calculating that number) NOW AFTER 55% still go to treasury which comes daily to 230099,1 RING This number 5% is up to discussion I took into account that probably not many will provide liquidity soon after launch. It would be good to get data how many farmed RING/USDT and CRAB/USDC liquidity when it was incentivised back in the days of Snowswap. Maybe we could set this for 6 months and then vote on extending this if this proves to be effective. |
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This is also valid, Saso and in sync with what Jesse suggested. Let's communicate more and get the best out of this proposal. |
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Also, if you're going to use a dex i'd really like it to be in the polkadot
ecosystem. Polkadot project NOT using the Polkadot ecosystem isn't
something I'd want to continue to support. What happened with The Omnipool?
I know they had been approached but it went silent afterwards.
…On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 4:31 PM JDubs ***@***.***> wrote:
David,
To start, I appreciate the effort you have put in so far.
There are a number of concerns I see in this proposal.
1.
Where are the 2000 KTON coming from? Based on my understanding the
Treasury does not hold that many KTON. It has been discussed before that
the treasury won't lock RING to mint KTON. So we should be requesting that
the Treasury provide the KTON they have plus the necessary RING for adding
liquidity to the current KTON/RING pool.
2.
Your calculation for power is a bit off in the above proposal. The
power provided by RING in staking is not related to the power provided by
KTON. Each coin has its own pool of power, which is constant at 500M each.
So to calculate power one needs to look at total RING staked or total KTON
staked. If you do that 1 RING yields 1.23 power and 1 KTON yields 6819
power.
3.
The idea of charging a 50% fee to swap RING to KTON will keep everyone
from using the pool as no one would take that kind of slippage in a trade.
Along with this, you are sending the fee rewards to places that are not
possible with Snowswap's current setup. Fees are rewarded to the LP
providers only.
4.
A 10% of current staking reward in a farm will not be enough to
attract LP providers. Why would I want to provide LP and lose 90% of the
same rewards if I were staking, the reward for providing LP and farming
needs to be equal or better than staking or no one will do it.
5.
You mention using KTON for governance purposes and this doesn't make a
lot of sense as KTON currently plays no role in governance.
I think from here I would suggest developing a proposal that does the
following:
Uses the 779 KTON and 726,028 RING (Current prices and will need to be
readjusted at the time liquidity is provided) to bolster the KTON swap pool
on Snowswap.xyz.
Also as part of this proposal or even a separate one a farm be setup that
is funded by the treasury that rewards an LP provider equal to what staking
rewards are for the KTON/RING provided. If you need some help figure out
the staking rewards on a power basis please let me know and I can help you.
There need to be a clear economic picture of what providing these farm
rewards will cost the treasury. If the economics work out without a large
impact to the treasury, the farm could offer rewards higher than staking.
The period for this farm should start at 6 months with a revaluation and a
funding proposal needed after that time frame to keep it going.
One thing we all need to keep in mind with these treasury spend proposals
is that they need to be robust and accurate with very clear impact and
costs.
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Snowswap.xyz is the Darwinia native DEX so this would be farming on chain. As far as I know the omnipool listing is moving forward with hrmp channels being opened as the first step. |
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I was referring to the degate dex that had been mentioned.... Good news on
Omnipool though.
…On Sun, Feb 18, 2024, 11:16 PM JDubs ***@***.***> wrote:
Snowswap.xyz is the Darwinia native DEX so this would be farming on chain.
As far as I know the omnipool listing is moving forward with hrmp channels
being opened as the first step.
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Hi!
My question is does Darwinia have any thoughts of making native Crab, Ckton, Ring and Kton available on any DEX? It is now only on Snowswap and liquidity is low for Kton and none for Ckton. Which is really bad for token holders/buyers/sellers. There is no price check for Crab and Ckton as well except pairing on Snowswap with usdt. Especialy impossible for Ckton. Liquidity providing is left for users although one needs to be very active, smart, experienced whale and have knowledge of IL to provide it as from users liquidity can only be as deep. I think many got burned hard already. I did too the first time although incentives then covered most of my IL. Buying Crab is nightmare to regular members(been helping a few in private chat, they think it is highly complicated).
I have been checking many DEXs in Dotsama space with many of them we have open channels as parachain so please let me know if I can help. I am sure Jesse can help too. And some other community members as well.
This question is not for my personal interest alone but comes up many times from community members.
So we can start discussion if no option available yet on how to approach this. I don't want Darwinia to provide all the liquidity and be left out dry but if we could somehow do it together.
Please let me know what you all think could help to get this problem fixed.
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