org-ref and citar/org-cite compatibility and features

[deb75]

Hi,

I would like to jump from org-ref to citar/org-cite.

I am just wondering if the citations in my org files, which are based on org-ref : [[cite:&citationkey]]
will always be valid with citar/org-cite ?

Furthermore, here is how I configure org-ref for a particular org file

#+LATEX_HEADER: \usepackage[citestyle=authoryear-icomp,bibstyle=authoryear, hyperref=true,backref=true,maxcitenames=3,url=false,backend=biber,natbib=true]{biblatex}
#+LATEX_HEADER: \addbibresource{d:/edebry/Documents/reference/bibliography.bib}

Do I need to change this for citar/org-cite ?

Also, a nice feature of org-ref I appreciate is the handling of references, especially that of math
environnments. Does citar/org-ref manages these references ?

Regards

[bdarcus]

I would like to jump from org-ref to citar/org-cite.

Cool!

I am just wondering if the citations in my org files, which are based on org-ref : [[cite:&citationkey]] will always be valid with citar/org-cite ?

You may want to read through this page to get a general sense of the place of this package.

https://github.com/emacs-citar/citar/wiki/Comparisons#citar-in-context

On your question, citar defers to org itself for what is and isn't a citation (org does the parsing etc). From that POV, it isn't.

But you can also configure custom major mode functions, though that only covers insertion (not at-point actions):

https://github.com/emacs-citar/citar/wiki/major-mode-functions

Furthermore, here is how I configure org-ref for a particular org file

#+LATEX_HEADER: \usepackage[citestyle=authoryear-icomp,bibstyle=authoryear, hyperref=true,backref=true,maxcitenames=3,url=false,backend=biber,natbib=true]{biblatex}
#+LATEX_HEADER: \addbibresource{d:/edebry/Documents/reference/bibliography.bib}

Do I need to change this for citar/org-cite ?

I don't have time to look into the details on this ATM, but maybe check the org manual? There's also a few good blog posts on org-cite that should explain this. It's easy.

It does sound like you want to use the oc-biblatex export processor, however (if you're using biblatex).

Also, a nice feature of org-ref I appreciate is the handling of references, especially that of math environnments. Does citar/org-ref manages these references ?

You mean cross-references?

No; I consider that out of scope; see #427.

PS - I may convert this to a discussion.

[bdarcus]

A very recent tutorial, but using oc-csl.

https://andras-simonyi.github.io/org-csl-cv-bib-tutorial/

[notuntoward]

I'd also like to switch to org-cite, but I haven't done it yet because the way its links are displayed in emacs will mess up a giant .org file I've kept going for almost a decade. Or am I wrong about that?

In emacs, an org-ref link written like this:

... an alternative is [[cite:Ying22multiTaskTreeMTGB][Ying et al. 2022: MT-GBM multitask tree]], which solves...

can display in an emacs buffer something like this:

... an alternative is Ying et al. 2022: MT-GBM multitask tree, which solves...

I remember when org-cite was first proposed, that @bdarcus thought that this would be doable in org-cite.

But I can't figure out how to do it. Can it be done?

[notuntoward]

Thanks for that info. Is it true, then, that in this case, org-cite-csl-activatate would display in emacs as

for more on x, see

or would it be

for more on x, see Doe 2022

supposing that Doe wrote something in 2022?

[bdarcus]

The latter, with the precise details depending on what CSL style you use for the preview.

[notuntoward]

That would cover maybe 80% of the links in my big org file of references. Is this the place to request a feature that would implement the org-ref or old bibtex mode behavior? Sometimes, for flow and minimal distraction, arbitrary text is just better than link text with an author and year in it.

[andras-simonyi]

Org-cite's citation suffixes and prefixes can contain arbitrary text and are also displayed as part of the rendered citations. Of course, arbitrary text is more flexible, but an important point to think about is exporting the document: org-cite-csl-activatate shows citations as they would be rendered in exported documents (using the CSL export processor) -- I suspect org-ref just ignores the citation link texts during export.

[bdarcus]

Keep in mind too that the tooltip in org-cite-csl-activate displays the full bibliographic entry.

A citation reference has affixes (that as @andras-simonyi says are exported) and the key, plus an optional style, and that's it. I don't see how a feature request (to org really) to add per-reference annotations would even work technically. What you seem to be suggesting is a completely different model than the current design.

Maybe you should just experiment with org-cite-csl-activate, @notuntoward, without initially worrying about converting existing documents?

The beauty of org-cite to me is its modular nature. You can easily change the activate processor to get different behavior there, and even write your own if you want, without citar or the export processors having to know anything about that.

... old bibtex mode behavior.

What's this though?

[notuntoward]

"Old bibtex mode behavior": I'm talking about the behavior I get if I don't install org-ref or citar: what happens when I put the cursor on a bibtex file entry and run M-x org-store-link, then paste the link into an org fiile with 'M-x org-insert-link' The format of the resulting org link is like:

[[file:energy.bib::Ying22multiTaskTreeMTGB][Ying et al. 2022: MT GBM]]

I guess that's just an ordinary file link but with the auto-generated bibtex-specific link text. I used these for years because how the link was rendered in org was totally editable. Eventually, I switched to org-ref for all the perks. There, it was also possible to get arbitrary link text rendering, at the cost of complicating exports. But complicated exports was not a problem because...

Exporting a technical, referenced article from org-mode is something I almost never do. I tried to make this work, but ended up doing my PhD and first papers in plain latex, because that's what my advisor wanted. Then in industry, anything published with references had to be in Word. Then back in academia, my students and colleagues all over the place universally wanted to use online latex editors, like Overleaf. Org-mode just wasn't feasible.

But I love org-mode. It's where I keep almost all of my brainstorming and literature notes. Org is just for me. For that use case, it's best to have arbitrary link text displayed in org-mode, as org-mode is the only way I ever see my notes.

Still, the new emacs cite links have even more perks than org-ref. I'd love to get that working.

[bdarcus]

In that example, what is MT GBM?

If you don't care about export, then it really doesn't matter what the answer is; you could likely do this:

[cite:@Ying22multiTaskTreeMTGB MT GBM]

Then org-cite-csl-activate will render that basically the same, depending on which CSL style you choose for rendering.

Affixes like that are usually used for things like page numbers, that of course do export, and whose rendering will vary by citation style. But since you don't care, you can use them for any kind of citation/citation-reference-specific annotation.